PEI Bed Surface

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kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:08 pm

And for folks who are looking for a perfect piece of PEI, https://www.zoro.com/search?q=ULTEM they have lots of sizes and thicknesses, and if you have more than 1 printer, getting a bigger sheet is more cost effective. (of if you have a bigger printer than the M2, or other 12" bed sizes as other sources don't stock anything bigger than 12x12

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zemlin
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by zemlin » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:10 pm

kazolar wrote:If you see it pulling up with the 3M 468 tape, then you didn't get a clean application in the first place. I have applied PEI to my 3 printers and a friend's printer as well, it is solid, nothing pulls it up.
It's not lifting, the bond is sound and the application is clean - but there is still some thickness and compliance to the material. As I said, I can see where the adhesive has been pressed down in the center of a part that pulls on the sheet, but the bond around the perimeter of the part still looks good - just not as solid as in the center. Perhaps about 10,000 lbs of force with the plate clamped between 2" steel plates, ground and polished, might achieve a uniform bond over the entire surface - but as you say, the adhesive is still visibly soft at 100C.

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zemlin
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by zemlin » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:13 pm

kazolar wrote:And for folks who are looking for a perfect piece of PEI, https://www.zoro.com/search?q=ULTEM they have lots of sizes and thicknesses, and if you have more than 1 printer, getting a bigger sheet is more cost effective. (of if you have a bigger printer than the M2, or other 12" bed sizes as other sources don't stock anything bigger than 12x12
I bought from McMaster Carr. Similar pricing. They have sheets up to 12x24 in a range of thicknesses.

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:28 pm

zemlin wrote:
kazolar wrote:And for folks who are looking for a perfect piece of PEI, https://www.zoro.com/search?q=ULTEM they have lots of sizes and thicknesses, and if you have more than 1 printer, getting a bigger sheet is more cost effective. (of if you have a bigger printer than the M2, or other 12" bed sizes as other sources don't stock anything bigger than 12x12
I bought from McMaster Carr. Similar pricing. They have sheets up to 12x24 in a range of thicknesses.
I found zoro as my delta bed is 500mm, McMaster is great (that's where I got all the screws and the Pliobond adhesive) I needed a source where I can get a 24x24 sheet -- zoro has 24x48 sheets -- very flat. If you do a lot of large ABS printing, consider using the Pliobond since it will cure, 100C will not soften it in any form.

I have not found 3M tape to be an issue, but I may consider it for the big delta if I notice PEI not being as solidly fused. Another point to consider is even though the MIC6 aluminum doesn't deform with heat (or not supposed to) -- the M2 heater does have a hot spot in the center, even with a heat spreader, so you will get lower temps on the on the perimeter. The hot spot may end up creating a high spot in the middle.

I was actually testing my 3 printer beds for temp consistency, and M2 is least consistent -- the hot spot in the middle is 2-3 degrees hotter than the perimeter -- not sure how it is with the MIC6 aluminum, but what I did was tape a piece of blue tape on the bed (as IR heat sensor doesn't pick up non-anodized aluminum) and I tested the heated beds with both a hand held IR heat gun, and a seek thermal camera addon for my phone, and I was able to see clear hot spots. I saw hot/cold zones on both "commercially" build printers, though the S1 Pro was within a degree of thermistor reading, M2 was more variable. Oddly enough my homemade giant bed was most consistent -- 2 degrees below the thermistor reading with no hot spots.

DrRobot
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by DrRobot » Fri May 20, 2016 9:11 pm

Hi kazolar, I am about to try PEI, is this the tape you used? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7D0I6/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Thanks
kazolar wrote:Since no one has mentioned it (at least not that I can find), I thought to start a topic on PEI print bed surface.
I've been using PEI virtually the entire time I've had the M2, and I simply wouldn't go back to bare glass, tape, glue stick or anything else.
I'm using a 0.06 thick piece of PEI laminated onto a piece of Boro glass with 3M 486MP tape. I used 2 inch wide tape, as it makes application a bit easier. I laminated the 12x12 piece of PEI onto Boro, then used an exacto knife to carefully trim it -- run the knife along the PEI a bunch of times until it's almost all the way through and then carefully snap.

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Fri May 20, 2016 9:20 pm

that's the tape.

Roll out a bit of tape fast (going slow will make the edges gummy) to make sure the edges of the tape are not all gummy. Cut it off the roll, use longer than 10 inch pieces so you have some length to hold on both ends. Then apply it by holding the piece of tape in each hand and hold it so that it's taught. The lay the long edge down on the boro just make the long edge make contact with boro then carefully use one hand to press it out along the long edge of the tape. Do not try to unroll it and applying like you would blue tape with the 2 inch piece down. You are trying to apply it in 10 inch pieces along the 10 inch side. I've had all sorts of trouble getting this tape to lay down without bubbles, this is the easiest way I've found. If you screw up. Acetone will dissolve this tape. Try not to press it down to much to fast or removing a screw up will be harder. This way you can lay it down along the long edge you'll make sure you have almost no gap between tape sections and gives you the most control. Good luck
DrRobot wrote:Hi kazolar, I am about to try PEI, is this the tape you used? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Y7D0I6/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Thanks
kazolar wrote:Since no one has mentioned it (at least not that I can find), I thought to start a topic on PEI print bed surface.
I've been using PEI virtually the entire time I've had the M2, and I simply wouldn't go back to bare glass, tape, glue stick or anything else.
I'm using a 0.06 thick piece of PEI laminated onto a piece of Boro glass with 3M 486MP tape. I used 2 inch wide tape, as it makes application a bit easier. I laminated the 12x12 piece of PEI onto Boro, then used an exacto knife to carefully trim it -- run the knife along the PEI a bunch of times until it's almost all the way through and then carefully snap.

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Tim
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by Tim » Sat May 21, 2016 12:30 am

So now that I have one of these MIC-6 plates, bead-blasted on one side and smooth on the other: If I put a sheet of PEI on the smooth side, then decide to use the bead-blasted side and place it with the PEI face down on the heater, how will the PEI affect the heat transfer? Will that slow down the heating appreciably?

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Sat May 21, 2016 12:36 am

PEI sheet is very thin, you should not notice any difference.

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Jules
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by Jules » Sat May 21, 2016 12:48 am

Tim wrote:So now that I have one of these MIC-6 plates, bead-blasted on one side and smooth on the other: If I put a sheet of PEI on the smooth side, then decide to use the bead-blasted side and place it with the PEI face down on the heater, how will the PEI affect the heat transfer? Will that slow down the heating appreciably?
It's a high temp material according to the spec sheet, and can handle 190°C temps long term. (Higher than that short term - so accidentally touching it with a hot nozzle doesn't generally damage it immediately.)

My main concern was melting it, by putting it face down on the heated plate for long periods, but that 190°C seems adequate for anything we tend to print.

So I'd go for it.....and let us know what happens! :) (And don't forget to scuff it a bit to get stuff to stick to it.) :D

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Tim
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by Tim » Sat May 21, 2016 5:30 pm

kazolar wrote:PEI sheet is very thin, you should not notice any difference.
Jules wrote:It's a high temp material according to the spec sheet, and can handle 190°C temps long term. (Higher than that short term - so accidentally touching it with a hot nozzle doesn't generally damage it immediately.)
Thanks to both of you. I wasn't particularly worried about damaging the PEI, mostly wondering if it acts like an insulator between the heated bed and the metal plate.

I have been following this discussion but I am still not certain what is the final (if any) conclusion about gluing the PEI to the MIC-6. The Pliobond contact cement #25 sounds like the best choice. The 3M 468, by contrast, is rated only to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, so I can't imagine why people are using it for something that is normally heated to a temperature well above that.

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