PEI Bed Surface

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Jules
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by Jules » Sat May 21, 2016 6:50 pm

Tim wrote: The 3M 468, by contrast, is rated only to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, so I can't imagine why people are using it for something that is normally heated to a temperature well above that.
:lol: Snort! Probably because I neglected to read that part...... :roll:

It hasn't come off yet though, and I regularly take it up to 65°-70°C...matter of fact - I don't know if I could even pry it off - feels like it's been cemented into place.

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Sat May 21, 2016 7:03 pm

Tim wrote: I have been following this discussion but I am still not certain what is the final (if any) conclusion about gluing the PEI to the MIC-6. The Pliobond contact cement #25 sounds like the best choice. The 3M 468, by contrast, is rated only to 100 degrees Fahrenheit, so I can't imagine why people are using it for something that is normally heated to a temperature well above that.
I've used Plibond #35 to adhere my silicone heater to aluminum heat spreader on my giant delta, and then also to adhere cork insulation to the back of the silicone heater (creating a sandwich). It takes a good 2 weeks to fully set and it stays somewhat rubbery after. I would not use it for PEI application. 468 tape is very effective for adhering PEI to boro, never tried it with aluminum directly. The issue with Plibond is it is hard to apply the cement in an even streak free fashion, #25 would be even harder, then you get imperfections under the PEI, which you don't want as PEI is thin, and the adhesive needs to be flat and bubble free.

Not sure where you found the rating: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1040 ... -200mp.pdf says these tapes are rated up to 400F, and can withstand hours at 130C+ Note the rating is for highest bond level, so bonding may soften at 100C, but not enough to pull up to have issues with ABS warping etc.

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Tim
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by Tim » Sat May 21, 2016 8:36 pm

kazolar wrote:Not sure where you found the rating: http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1040 ... -200mp.pdf says these tapes are rated up to 400F, and can withstand hours at 130C+ Note the rating is for highest bond level, so bonding may soften at 100C, but not enough to pull up to have issues with ABS warping etc.
I found the rating, or at least a similar rating, in several places, but it's not clear whether it is meaningful. For all I know, it's referring to the transfer tape itself, with the paper backing on it, and not the adhesive. The 3M data sheet is more thorough, more detailed, and comes directly from 3M, so it is clearly the most trustworthy source.

One interesting thing off the fact sheet is that when they say it can withstand temperatures up to 200C for "short periods", they mean hours, as opposed to 150C for "long periods" meaning days or weeks. Either way, it's pretty tough stuff.

Thanks again for the pointer!

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mv3dnerd
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by mv3dnerd » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:02 am

Been following this thread for a while. Using the PEI from zoro.com and 3m 468MP tape with MIC 6 al. It works ok but I am in the process of getting the plate milled with the PEI stuck on it. I have a friend who works at a machine shop to help me with this. My question is has anyone tried this http://imgur.com/a/9L7L0. It looks simple enough and may be similar to the PEI coated aluminum in Europehttp://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,596751, which I would like to try. The issues we trying to fix here is making a surface that the filament bonds to but is also flat meaning really flat.

https://www.zoro.com/ultem-sheet-stck-1 ... /G1023897/

~MV

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zemlin
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by zemlin » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:42 pm

mv3dnerd wrote:Been following this thread for a while. Using the PEI from zoro.com and 3m 468MP tape with MIC 6 al. It works ok but I am in the process of getting the plate milled with the PEI stuck on it. I have a friend who works at a machine shop to help me with this. My question is has anyone tried this http://imgur.com/a/9L7L0. It looks simple enough and may be similar to the PEI coated aluminum in Europehttp://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,596751, which I would like to try. The issues we trying to fix here is making a surface that the filament bonds to but is also flat meaning really flat.

https://www.zoro.com/ultem-sheet-stck-1 ... /G1023897/

~MV
That's intriguing. The compliance of the adhesive sheet under the Ultem/PEI is something I've been looking to overcome. Once concern is if I bond it, how to remove it in the future to replace. A thin sheet like this could be cleaned off with solvent without too much trouble. A light sanding or sand blast on the metal surface would probably be good for the bond too.

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:48 pm

A thin film will need to be replaced. LulzBot uses thin film, different application method, but idea is the same. I notice after a few hundred prints PEI needs a light sanding with 600+ grit to get sticking again. A thin film leaves not much material to sand away. I have removed PEI from glass before with a spatula. Takes care to do it right, then a bath in Acetone to clean up the adhesive. I wouldn't want a permanent bond, especially with a super thin film.

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Jules
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by Jules » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:18 pm

I was reading (somewhere) that any citrus based cleaner will remove the 3M 486 tape.....(don't ask me how you would get it under the PEI! ) :lol:

Also agree that the thicker 0.03" PEI holds up better - I don't plan to remove it once I apply it. (Why I now have 5 PEI covered plates. :roll: )

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:23 pm

Considering that I made the effort to laminate a 500mm bed for my giant delta, considering how hard it is to get the adhesive to go on bubble free, I have no expectation to ever remove it.

kazolar
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by kazolar » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:30 pm

If someone is interested in PEI film ( I have not used it nor even know how to apply it properly)
here is a source -- any brave soul who tries it, I'm curious as to results
http://catalog.cshyde.com/viewitems/fil ... ide-resin/

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zemlin
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Re: PEI Bed Surface

Post by zemlin » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:06 pm

Testing ABS on PEI today with ABS slurry. Hatchbox filament, 100C bed. Without the juice I was getting very slight lifting in the corners. With the juice - zero lift and easy enough to separate once cooled. Bed has been lightly wet-sanded with 800 grit paper.

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