Just FYI, since some people were mentioning printing higher-temperature plastics, regardless of any considerations of whether or not such things are printable without heated enclosures or other extraordinary measures, I asked E3D about how they got the temperatures as high as they claim (420 degrees C, for printing FEP, which is the highest temperature I've heard of for printing anything), and they said that they swapped out the thermistor for a thermocouple, and removed the whole hot-end heating process from the electronics board and replaced it by a standalone temperature controller and thermocouple, like the one found here:
http://www.amazon.com/Display-Auto-tuni ... B007JWIDCE
So if you're looking to print something at temperatures above the thermistor limit (295C), this is the way to go, and is actually quite cheap, probably much cheaper than any other measures you might have to take to print high-temperature materials successfully.
E3D V6
Re: E3D V6
Cool thanks for the info Tim!
Re: E3D V6
MakerGear: 1, E3D: 0. For now, anyway.
I identified a number of problems with the E3Dv6 that make it problematic, at least for printing with PET+ on the M2. The first is that the fan mount that comes with the E3Dv6 allows a lot of cool air to escape and blow downward onto the plate. PET+ is like ABS; you don't want cool air blowing on it or else it starts to shrink immediately. So I had severe issues with warping. But then, warping causes the layers to push up against the nozzle and increase the risk of the nozzle being clogged. If the nozzle isn't clogging, then the plastic has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is usually all over the nozzle. This is one of the things that makes PET+ messy to work with. However, the MakerGear cone-shaped nozzle just gets messy. The E3Dv6 has the shape of a little cone underneath a hex nut; that hex nut has a flat underside. That flat underside gets PET+ building up until it forms a big mass around the nozzle and starts interfering with the print.
For a while I had the tension bolt on the filament drive too loose, and the extruder would clog. I tightened it, and then the extruder got lots of build-up. In both cases, I had to abandon the print.
I switched back to the MakerGear v3 hot-end and am getting a perfect print. So it isn't an issue with the gray filament per se (although I still cannot be too sure of the relative temperature differences between the two. The gray PET+ gets rather liquidy at 235C on the v3 and I had to turn it way back to 220C to keep it from running like a faucet. At 235C on the E3Dv6, it didn't seem so runny, but maybe I did have it set too high and it's just harder to tell that it's runny because the E3Dv6 is less prone to ooze problems).
Now that I have plenty of gray PET+ and a working MakerGear hot end, I will use that to print Jim's fan mount and try again with the E3Dv6 later.
I identified a number of problems with the E3Dv6 that make it problematic, at least for printing with PET+ on the M2. The first is that the fan mount that comes with the E3Dv6 allows a lot of cool air to escape and blow downward onto the plate. PET+ is like ABS; you don't want cool air blowing on it or else it starts to shrink immediately. So I had severe issues with warping. But then, warping causes the layers to push up against the nozzle and increase the risk of the nozzle being clogged. If the nozzle isn't clogging, then the plastic has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is usually all over the nozzle. This is one of the things that makes PET+ messy to work with. However, the MakerGear cone-shaped nozzle just gets messy. The E3Dv6 has the shape of a little cone underneath a hex nut; that hex nut has a flat underside. That flat underside gets PET+ building up until it forms a big mass around the nozzle and starts interfering with the print.
For a while I had the tension bolt on the filament drive too loose, and the extruder would clog. I tightened it, and then the extruder got lots of build-up. In both cases, I had to abandon the print.
I switched back to the MakerGear v3 hot-end and am getting a perfect print. So it isn't an issue with the gray filament per se (although I still cannot be too sure of the relative temperature differences between the two. The gray PET+ gets rather liquidy at 235C on the v3 and I had to turn it way back to 220C to keep it from running like a faucet. At 235C on the E3Dv6, it didn't seem so runny, but maybe I did have it set too high and it's just harder to tell that it's runny because the E3Dv6 is less prone to ooze problems).
Now that I have plenty of gray PET+ and a working MakerGear hot end, I will use that to print Jim's fan mount and try again with the E3Dv6 later.
Re: E3D V6
Just doing some numerology on what jim said earlier, if the E3D behaves like a v3b temperature-wise, then your 220 on the v3 would translate into 240 on the e3d. That's a little higher than 235, and would lean things in the direction of less warping/clogging anyway.
Re: E3D V6
tim i run the pet+ with the bed fan on. i dont get any warping from it. hairspray on the bed and run it at 70. i never get the pet warping or curling even on large prints. bed fan is always running at 60%. that big blob you get on the nozzle is a tricky one. if you get your settings nailed down for the stuff and you get it printing nice then it prints as clean as any other plastic BUT if you off with something just a little then the pet likes to gather on the nozzle and it turns into the snowball effect. you will find the e3d just doesnt ooze as much as the v3 or v3b. there is just less molten material in it since the melt zone is so short.
Re: E3D V6
But I do use hairspray and keep the bed hot (70, actually, because 60 had no adhesion at all). Really, there is a HUGE difference in adhesion between the print I did with the E3D and the one that I did with the MakerGear v3. The bed heat was the same in both cases. So it could be a matter of what the extruder temperature is. What do you find? Do you have any evidence that temperatures need to be set higher than typically stated, like the v3b?
And I keep the fan off because some months ago when I started my spool of white PET+, I was printing a large object (figure 8 dish, you can find it on my Thingiverse page), and it kept popping off the bed at the ends until I yanked the fan plug. As long as the fan was blowing on the bed, I would hear loud pops and cracks from underneath, and eventually the part would peel up at the ends. Only when I stopped the fan would it stick properly.
I don't recall ever hearing an explanation of why the v3b needs to be set higher than stated. I guess it all has to do with the relationship between the heating element, the nozzle, and the thermistor. If the thermistor is closer to the heating element than the nozzle, then the thermistor will tend to read high, and will need to be set higher than what temperature you want the nozzle to be, so that the nozzle will come out to the right temperature. So the v3b has the thermistor too close to the heater? But the E3Dv6 has the thermistor sitting just about as close to the nozzle as can be arranged, so it seems that it really ought to be just about right. I guess the other theory would be that until the v3b, all hot-ends just had a thermistor taped to the outside of the nozzle with kapton, and so they all read too low, so everybody's stated numbers are too low. Could that be true?
And I keep the fan off because some months ago when I started my spool of white PET+, I was printing a large object (figure 8 dish, you can find it on my Thingiverse page), and it kept popping off the bed at the ends until I yanked the fan plug. As long as the fan was blowing on the bed, I would hear loud pops and cracks from underneath, and eventually the part would peel up at the ends. Only when I stopped the fan would it stick properly.
I don't recall ever hearing an explanation of why the v3b needs to be set higher than stated. I guess it all has to do with the relationship between the heating element, the nozzle, and the thermistor. If the thermistor is closer to the heating element than the nozzle, then the thermistor will tend to read high, and will need to be set higher than what temperature you want the nozzle to be, so that the nozzle will come out to the right temperature. So the v3b has the thermistor too close to the heater? But the E3Dv6 has the thermistor sitting just about as close to the nozzle as can be arranged, so it seems that it really ought to be just about right. I guess the other theory would be that until the v3b, all hot-ends just had a thermistor taped to the outside of the nozzle with kapton, and so they all read too low, so everybody's stated numbers are too low. Could that be true?
Re: E3D V6
the v3b reads temp differently simply because the thermistor is picking up the temp in the different location. i find the v3b and e3d have about the same reading and i would suspect almost all hot ends that use the block now will read roughly the same. as for the pet+...well i havent seen a difference in bonding to the bed with one hot end or the other. i dont think the hot end has anything to really do with the actual bed adhesion. it could just be coincidence really...who knows. as for the temps, i have printed the clear and the black pet+ but also have it here in red and white which i have not tried. i can get the black and clear to print real nice at 245 but the black will not layer bond very well no matter what i do. the clear is bonded solid at 245 while the black i have printed at 270 and its better but still not good. it doesnt fall apart or anything like that but its not bonded like abs or other plastics. i dont know if that holds true to the other opaque colors or not. ill see when i try the red or white. im not sure why you have the stuff warp on you. i think to date i have never had a pet+ print even remotely try to peel up on a corner or anything. i couldnt for the life of me print gary's chairside organizer in abs but pet+ no problem. that is big and square too. only difference i have is i dont use glass. i print on a 1/4" piece of mic6 aluminum which give me an extremely even heated surface. its been a long time but i took some comparison temp readings between the glass and alum. the most i see is a 2-3 deg variation in temp from the center of the bed to the corners. with glass i was getting over 20....if i remember right.
Re: E3D V6
As far as opaque colors of PET+ go, I can say that the print I just did of the motor mount has the smoothest underside surface I have ever seen on a print. From that side (only that side, of course) it looks like it's injection molded. The white and the gray both show excellent layer bonding.
It's quite possible that all my problems came from treating the temperature range of the E3D like the range of the v3, not the v3b, and I was just printing a bit too cool for the PET+. But I will stick with my current program of printing your fan mount and duct first, before making another run with the E3Dv6.
By the way, do you have the aluminum heating block on the E3Dv6 open to the air or insulated like MakerGear does? I considered the possibility that I was getting additional problems from the heat radiating off of the block, which in addition to not being insulated, is also a lot closer to the printed part due to the small nozzle. Insulation is a great idea, but it's a difficult shape to wrap, unlike the MakerGear v3 where you just slip an insulating sleeve over the hot end and you're done.
It's quite possible that all my problems came from treating the temperature range of the E3D like the range of the v3, not the v3b, and I was just printing a bit too cool for the PET+. But I will stick with my current program of printing your fan mount and duct first, before making another run with the E3Dv6.
By the way, do you have the aluminum heating block on the E3Dv6 open to the air or insulated like MakerGear does? I considered the possibility that I was getting additional problems from the heat radiating off of the block, which in addition to not being insulated, is also a lot closer to the printed part due to the small nozzle. Insulation is a great idea, but it's a difficult shape to wrap, unlike the MakerGear v3 where you just slip an insulating sleeve over the hot end and you're done.
Re: E3D V6
na i dont have any insulation. i didnt have it on my v3b either. i took it off. matt over at printed solid just sent me a test sample of colorfabb's xt in an opaque black which hasnt been released yet. he said there are releasing a line of opaque colors. i am doing some test prints with it now and have to say i am impressed but i will start that in another thread so this one stays on topic.
Re: E3D V6
I really need to get some ecoflex or ninjaflex to put the E3Dv6 through its paces. But for now. . .
Yeah, definitely the one important lesson to learn is that the temperature range of the E3Dv6 is almost exactly like that of the MakerGear v3b. Once I upped all my temperatures by 20 degrees C, everything started working much better.
Another lesson learned is that I cut the heating element wires only as long as I needed them. But then, after running PET+ at too low a temperature clogged up the nozzle, I broke one of those heater wires while disassembling the hot end. I had to strip the wire back to get the connector back on, and by then I was completely out of margin for the wire. The problem is that the v6, unlike previous verson, has the thermistor and heater wires on the left side instead of the right. So all the wires get crammed against the side when X homes, and the hot end can't even reach the X end stop. The solution to that was to move the block that engages the X end stop over---MakerGear thoughtfully added an extra hole, so it's adjustible. But I lost about a centimeter of width on my X axis that way. A better solution might be to ignore the E3D instructions on the v6 and connect the heating element with the wires going out the right side, opposite of the thermistor. Bring up all wires except for the thermistor up the right side of the hot end, and allow a bit of extra length on the wire!
Having gone back to the MakerGear v3 nozzle to print Jim's fan ducts, I finally got everything put together again and am now printing my chess set in PLA (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:335658). It's looking good, but that's not a very aggressive test, to say the least.
Yeah, definitely the one important lesson to learn is that the temperature range of the E3Dv6 is almost exactly like that of the MakerGear v3b. Once I upped all my temperatures by 20 degrees C, everything started working much better.
Another lesson learned is that I cut the heating element wires only as long as I needed them. But then, after running PET+ at too low a temperature clogged up the nozzle, I broke one of those heater wires while disassembling the hot end. I had to strip the wire back to get the connector back on, and by then I was completely out of margin for the wire. The problem is that the v6, unlike previous verson, has the thermistor and heater wires on the left side instead of the right. So all the wires get crammed against the side when X homes, and the hot end can't even reach the X end stop. The solution to that was to move the block that engages the X end stop over---MakerGear thoughtfully added an extra hole, so it's adjustible. But I lost about a centimeter of width on my X axis that way. A better solution might be to ignore the E3D instructions on the v6 and connect the heating element with the wires going out the right side, opposite of the thermistor. Bring up all wires except for the thermistor up the right side of the hot end, and allow a bit of extra length on the wire!
Having gone back to the MakerGear v3 nozzle to print Jim's fan ducts, I finally got everything put together again and am now printing my chess set in PLA (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:335658). It's looking good, but that's not a very aggressive test, to say the least.