HIPS & PET+

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cliffwarner
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by cliffwarner » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:10 am

The bond is weak enough in spots that the part would crack if used. There is visable separation of outer perimeters in places and a fingernail can peel them away. It also does not handle where it is building on top of supports well at all. it can take up to 15 layers to sort that out. I will take images of the issues tomorrow and post them.

-Cliff

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jimc
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by jimc » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:20 am

just something i have found out on the pet+. the opaques dont layer bond anywhere near as well as the clear or translucents. its not extremely bad or anything but its nothing crazy either. i found its very similar or just a hair under that of abs. i have done some testing on this and actually went back and forth awhile with brian the prez of madesolid. some things i have found is that the bed fan being on or off doesnt have any difference. raising the temp does make things better but not a huge difference. your at 250 now. i never print any of the opaques less than 255. usually i run up to 265. even that high the bond isnt super. i really only have an issue with any of this though on super thin wall parts with maybe only a single perimeter. from your description though it does sound like you maybe have another issue which is enhancing this a bit. i have found that squishing each layer together makes the biggest difference. if your extrusion width is narrow compared to your nozzle diameter as well as your layer heigh being high then this is a big thing. assuming your using a v3b with a .35 nozzle, try running the layer height at no more than .15mm. set the extrusion width to .5-.55mm. bump the temp to 255 but no more than that on a v3b. if your using s3d and you have the new 2.2 version then set the infill width to 130-140% and also use 2 perimeters or better. never use sparse infill setting with any pet.

Dale Reed
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by Dale Reed » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:17 am

hey jimc,

Just a tangent here... Using the clear PET+, have you been able to make watertight prints? If so, did you find some key parameters (similar to those you gave for using translucent) that aid in printing watertight models? I assume some minimum number of perimeters (greater than 1) and some minimum part thickness would be required.

I had printed the MAKE torture test object, but I never got the box part of it to hold water perfectly. If I put a paper towel under the part, once the water found it, it wicked out pretty quick.

I'm thinking of making some gifts this year and watertightness is a key attribute of the gift! I have some MadeSolid PET+ left and two new spools of natural PETG from eSun.

Dale

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jimc
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by jimc » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:39 am

dale, the watertightness thing is something i have only tried once and that was with the vase i printed on the spiral mode months ago. obviously with one perimeter it was not watertight. i have a feeling you will have better luck with petg because of the layer bonding of that stuff. a couple few perimeters of that stuff seems very solid BUT i have not given it the test and that is what really counts. i printed my own version of the customizer christmas tree last night in the red petg and it came out extremely clear so that is a real good sign of all the layers being completely melted together. i normally print the esun stuff at 245 but i jack the temp up to 265. there was a definite difference in clarity.

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Tim
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by Tim » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:02 am

I can vouch for the fact that running the fan can be a problem when printing PET+ (but doesn't seem to be the case with PETg). But it wasn't about layer adhesion. The fan was causing the bed to cool down enough that the print would start popping off the glass (with loud and worrisome popping and cracking noises). Cooling from the fan seemed to make the warping of the PET+ worse.

I can also vouch for the fact that the PET plastics (both PET+ and PETg), like Jim says, don't like to be printed at sparse infill. I printed the extruder mount for the E3Dv6 using MadeSolid opaque gray (and did the motor mount in both opaque gray and opaque white). I printed infill at, I think 70 to 80%. Temperature was 245, I think, but that was on an old V3, so the equivalent temperature for the V3b would be something like 265, which again agrees with what Jim said (which it should. Jim always has the best advice!).

I have printed water-tight pieces in both PET+ (see my figure-8 dish on Thingiverse. . . it's thick, and it doesn't leak), and PETg (see my vase/cup on the PETg discussion thread on this forum). It is not a single-wall vase, it's one that I modeled in OpenSCAD by shrinking the geometry and subtracting it out of the larger solid to make a piece with walls that were about 4-5 filament widths thick (i.e., 2 to 2.5mm). I cleaned it up in the dishwasher and drank out of it. Makes a great cup! Completely water-tight.

cliffwarner
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by cliffwarner » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:05 am

jimc wrote:just something i have found out on the pet+. the opaques dont layer bond anywhere near as well as the clear or translucents. its not extremely bad or anything but its nothing crazy either. i found its very similar or just a hair under that of abs. i have done some testing on this and actually went back and forth awhile with brian the prez of madesolid. some things i have found is that the bed fan being on or off doesnt have any difference. raising the temp does make things better but not a huge difference. your at 250 now. i never print any of the opaques less than 255. usually i run up to 265. even that high the bond isnt super. i really only have an issue with any of this though on super thin wall parts with maybe only a single perimeter. from your description though it does sound like you maybe have another issue which is enhancing this a bit. i have found that squishing each layer together makes the biggest difference. if your extrusion width is narrow compared to your nozzle diameter as well as your layer heigh being high then this is a big thing. assuming your using a v3b with a .35 nozzle, try running the layer height at no more than .15mm. set the extrusion width to .5-.55mm. bump the temp to 255 but no more than that on a v3b. if your using s3d and you have the new 2.2 version then set the infill width to 130-140% and also use 2 perimeters or better. never use sparse infill setting with any pet.
I am using S3d with V2.2, an 0.35mm nozzle and a 0.15mm layer height. I was using auto width, which I changed to 0.55, and bumped the temp to 255. I also increased the infill width to 140%. Lastly, I used 3 perimeters. The PET+ was slightly better, but not enough to get me to continue the print. I stopped a print in the second layer to show the issues. As soon as I can figure out how to upload an image to this forum, I will post one.

I picked up some ColorFabb_XT today from Printed Solid (I live really close to Matt) and have started using it for the same part. Wow, what a difference. Where the PET+ would not stick to itself at 255 the XT works at 245 and possibly lower. Both large area over supports and perimeter bonding were vastly improved and as good as PLA and some of the PLA/PHA filament I use regularly. The material is expensive, but right out of the blocks it is giving me a very good print with what seems to be very good bonding. It did have some difficulty with some supports not bonding to the build plate well, initially. However, they resolved themselves. Hopefully, I will have the parts I need to move over to the E3D V6 soon...

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jimc
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by jimc » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:18 am

yes i am printing the xt right now as a matter of fact. xt is night and day different that pet+. they are both pet but very different varieties. the properties are totally different. i do like pet+ for some things and not for others. last week i printed some parts in opaque white. they were actually structural pieces and extremely strong. i had no issue with the layer bonding on those but they were very thick and heavy duty. i was actually able to drill and tap holes in it for some bolts. they were support brackets for the inside of an old antique gas pump so they needed to be quite sturdy. if it printed something with the same settings but very thin then i would expect it to break easily. very strange like that. i am wondering if perhaps you got a spool where there was too much colorant in it. after talking to brian he had said the colorant content on the opaques are what causes the difference. if i was you i would send them an email about it. i would expect they would help you out. they are good guys to deal with and always listen to feedback. the esun stuff that many of use got here recently on a group buy layer bonds just like xt. its solid....also waaay cheaper.

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Tim
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by Tim » Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:48 am

I'd say bump the temperature up to 265 on the PET+ first and see if that makes a difference.

cliffwarner
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by cliffwarner » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:42 am

I am planning on trying out the esun material when I get a chance to buy some. I wanted to try the XT first as it seemed to have a good reputation and I can pick it up from Matt very easily.

Tim, I will try higher temperatures once I get my E3D V6 on my M2. I should be able to get those parts printed by the weekend.

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jimc
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Re: HIPS & PET+

Post by jimc » Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:48 am

yes matt is a good guy. i had him do some metal casting for me on a project recently. i get my xt from him as well. the xt and esun seem to print about exactly the same. i use my xt profile for both without changing anything. let me know when you get your e3d setup. i'll give you some of my profiles since i run a v6 as well. i have a whole e3d drive setup for the m2 here...http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:344950

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