Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

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jfjohnny5
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:12 am

Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by jfjohnny5 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:52 pm

I recently upgraded my old 19v/12v v3 to a shiny new 24v v4. From an assembly/mechanical standpoint, everything looks good. I was having some issues with the extruder temp that were resolved with a firmware update. The physical unit worked; the firmware just wasn't tuned properly.

Since finishing all of that though, I've been having a hell of a time getting things to stick. On my old hotend, I usually printed PLA at around 190-195 with a 60-70 bed temp. I've tried a whole range of temps and the corners keep lifting on some prints. Small test prints like a 20mm cube or the stepped 5mm cubes on Thingiverse print fine. I don't see corner warping. Adhesion is good. Layer alignment is perfect; even better than before.

The specific prints I've been having trouble with are the Open Forge Dungeon Tiles on Thingiverse. The corners just insist on curling up. I even bought some Buildtak after reading all the positive comments about it. Early tests were promising. The small calibration items printed awesomely well on a cold bed. I couldn't pop them off without a little assistance from a print removal tool (long, rounded spatula with a very thin front edge - it's on Amazon. I love it) - which is how I think it should be. I then printed a single 2x2 wall tile and it looked really good. I didn't see corner warping.

Then last night I filled up the build plate with six 2x2 tiles. Extruder @ 197. Bed @ 0. 60mm/sec with a 50% underspeed for the first layer which was at 90% height. I checked on it this morning. The print was done, and half of them had rounded to the point of being rocking chairs. :? I've got another batch printing now while I'm at work. This time I've decided to try a heated bed temp of 50 (last night was a cold bed), and I tweaked a Z offset of -0.03 to get the nozzle slightly closer to the bed. I'll see how it turns out when I get home from work.

Anyway (sorry this is so long) I was thinking... a single tile worked fine, but a plate full of tiles warped like crazy. Is it possible that with that much area to cover, by the time the nozzle makes it back to any given piece, the previous layers have cooled too much? My experience with PLA has always been about cooling it as much as possible due to the low glass transition temp, but with a print this large, is it in my better interest to keep it warm?

I've dealt with my share of tweaking this thing in the past, but it's getting really discouraging right now. I'm beating my head against a wall trying to figure out what the problem is. There are just so many variables...

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Jules
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Re: Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by Jules » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:12 pm

Couple of suggestions you can try, 'cause like you said, it's a never ending battle to hit the sweet spot, and it's all fresh with a new nozzle:

I've noticed that a brand new nozzle takes a while to settle in. Usually the first half dozen or so large prints (larger than calibration cubes) can have issues, but then it straightens out.

Try:
Tweak your first layer back up to 100%.
Up the first layer printing temperature a bit - 205° - 210° to make sure you get good adhesion. 60° is probably fine for the bed,all the way through.

I've never used BuildTak so no idea whether you could use a spritz on it or not, but hairspray is always an option.

Other than that, you've done everything else that I can think of. There's always the option of attaching a brim to it, but those have to be removed, which is a hassle. :(

jfjohnny5
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Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:12 am

Re: Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by jfjohnny5 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:15 pm

Ok, so I upped the extruder temp to 207 (split the difference between 205 and 210), and decided to leave the bed unheated; as that's what BuildTak suggests for PLA. I also took steps to eliminate drafts on the printer. It seems a lot better. I had a couple that still had slight curling (less than 1mm, but definitely not "flat" like the others). I may try building some kind of enclosure. It would need to be big though... something I'm not thrilled about.

I'm also wondering if it's the color. I'm currently using white PLA. I've seen a couple random interweb mentions of people having issues with white. I got some eSUN Black PLA+ yesterday. Think I may try that tonight.

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Jules
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Re: Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by Jules » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:19 pm

Yeah, could very well be. White is a problem child. :roll:

jfjohnny5
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Re: Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by jfjohnny5 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:53 pm

There seems to be some validity to the "color theory" (not sure why I find that amusing). I'm getting just the tiniest amount of corner lift, if any at all, with the Black filament.

I'm still working to tweak the settings with the BuildTak though. That stuff really sticks. I haven't had anything I've been unable to remove, but I'd gotten so used to just popping my prints off the bare glass when it cooled down. This takes some getting used to.

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Jules
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Re: Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by Jules » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:14 pm

I always have more trouble with white. (Make sure you let the BuildTak cool off completely before trying to remove the prints - I think it's one of those "hold on till it cools" materials.)

jfjohnny5
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Re: Adhesion Problems - Help with my Theories

Post by jfjohnny5 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:51 pm

I'm not even heating it. It still sticks like crazy.

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