Fine Detail Printing

Post your advice, tips, suggestions, etc...
spizzak
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by spizzak » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:38 pm

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I just realized my original post had values off by a factor of 10. I meant to say features 250-300um not 25-30. Edited now.

Alloy
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Alloy » Wed Aug 12, 2015 5:32 pm

What is the smallest layer height and extrusions width possible with the different sized nozzles available? I print a lot at .1 layer height because I need high quality visuals and aesthetics. I was thinking about getting the .25 nozzle so I could print a finer outer surface finish ("large" prints, width not important)

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Jules
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Jules » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:12 pm

I think the rule of thumb is that you want your minimum extrusion width to be slightly larger than the nozzle diameter, so for a 0.35 mm nozzle, you don't want to go much below 0.37 mm extrusion width. (Although it can be done, you don't have as much control.)

So for a 0.25 mm nozzle, it folllows that you'd keep it in the 0.27 mm extrusion width range.

Layer height is independent of the nozzle size - i regularly print at a 0.20 mm layer height, with a 0.35 mm nozzle, although you want to keep the extruded width to height ratio above 1.8 for some reason that i read about in here somewhere. (Can't remember why, just that it's better, so i do it. :) )

Your stepper motor is only capable of 0.1 mm increments though, so that's the limit on the resolution of your layer heights. The improvement in surface finish with a smaller nozzle is going to be in top and bottom surfaces, where you will have tighter infill inside the outlines, and fewer dropped threads because they won't fit. A smaller nozzle would probably be a good idea for curved upper surfaces on designs - those are tough to fill completely without 80%+ infill, and lots of solid surface layers.

I haven't even used mine yet. :D

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Matt_Sharkey
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Matt_Sharkey » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:22 pm

Jules wrote:Layer height is independent of the nozzle size - i regularly print at a 0.20 mm layer height, with a 0.35 mm nozzle, although you want to keep the extruded width to height ratio above 1.8 for some reason that i read about in here somewhere. (Can't remember why, just that it's better, so i do it. :) )
you want the threads to be a bit of an oval that's smooshed down. that ensures that each layer contacts and adheres to each other, otherwise every 1mm layer would have 1mm diameter tubes that are exactly tangent to each other, connecting at one point, and not really forming any sort of bond.
Your stepper motor is only capable of 0.1 mm increments though, so that's the limit on the resolution of your layer heights.
Not to nit pick to hard on your Jules, The stepper can control as fine as 0.025mm but because of various error factors at that scale (bed consistency and rail bowing) you can only consistently print at 0.1mm, and even then you have to be calibrated spot on, while being a bit lucky at the same time.

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jimc
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by jimc » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:28 pm

Actually the layer heights will go alit finer than .1mm. On an occasion i will run .08mm and there is a pic floating around somewhere of a yoda head i think josh did at .02mm

The small nozzle really doesnt make much of a surface finish improvement as it does level of detail on top surfaces. Its great for stuff like doing small text or very thin walls.

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Jules
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Jules » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:39 pm

Matt_Sharkey wrote:....
Your stepper motor is only capable of 0.1 mm increments though, so that's the limit on the resolution of your layer heights.
Not to nit pick to hard on your Jules, The stepper can control as fine as 0.025mm but because of various error factors at that scale (bed consistency and rail bowing) you can only consistently print at 0.1mm, and even then you have to be calibrated spot on, while being a bit lucky at the same time.
ROFL! My nits have been picked...(i feel so much better now... :lol: :lol: :lol: )

I stand corrected.... ;)

But from a practical perspective, if you need layer heights less than 0.1mm, wouldn't it be better to just go with laser sintering to start with? (Thought long and hard about it before deciding on the M2. Just seems like layer heights under 0.1 are waaay too much fiddling for the gain. :D )

Alloy
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Alloy » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:21 pm

Jules wrote:But from a practical perspective, if you need layer heights less than 0.1mm, wouldn't it be better to just go with laser sintering to start with?
Maybe...but...money....I have the FDM machine already

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ednisley
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by ednisley » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:26 pm

Jules wrote:better to just go with laser sintering to start with?
A photopolymer printer may be more practical for ordinary home-shop users:
http://formlabs.com/products/form-1-plus/

The minimum feature size seems to be 0.30 mm, about half of what you'd get with a small-nozzle filament-based printer on a fair day with a tailwind, and 0.1 mm layer thickness seems the default. So it's not a clear win for very very very small details.

You still need support for complex objects and, by definition, support will be the same photopolymer.

The surface finish looks nice; kinda like acetone-smoothed ABS.

Limited colors and spendy consumables, though...

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Mark the Greater
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Mark the Greater » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:32 pm

That Form 1+ was nearly mine instead of the M2. Looked too pretty though. Like I would feel bad if I started messing with it pretty. No good for me!
Love Always,
MtG

Alloy
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Re: Fine Detail Printing

Post by Alloy » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:41 pm

ednisley wrote:A photopolymer printer may be more practical for ordinary home-shop users:
http://formlabs.com/products/form-1-plus/
That's pretty neat! I have witnessed the submerged part/vat style SLA printers at a prototyping shop

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