Probably sending the M2 back (regretfully)

[jtrue]

Hi Makers!
So bummed to say this but my new M2 machine is not something that's ready for prime time. I've been at it for a couple of days now. I've re-leveled the board plate and the pins a couple of times. I've rechecked and adjusted my temperature controls for the nozzle and the plate. Even simple shapes like a flat heart are just too much for this machine to output. I've given up on trying to print out my fancy robot legs and just tried to print flat plain legs but even those have all kinds of issues that i can't really use any of them and it seems impossible to get the same result to come out three times in a row. Once i had the leg done, looked beautiful but it melted to the plate. I waited for the plate to be cold to the touch but the printed piece broken while i was trying to pry it up from the table.

Here's a couple of photos of hours and hours and hours of hoping and tweaking and holding my mouth right and buying extra software. I did get half of a raspberry pi case printed. The bottom only, it seems the top was too complicated to hold up.

I kept simplifying a small heart shape i wanted to put a tiny light inside of. Printing it flat against the machine was impossible, I tried to standing it up but it build millions if feet which encased the piece in hard plastic. Finally a simple clip art shaped heart just to prove it works, too little heat it splits into layers, too much it burns the table film (yellowish stuff). I've adjusted the temp a few degrees at a time trying to find the sweet spot but it seems to change in the middle of the print. My dreams are dashed If anyone is wondering if this printer is ready for the average consumer, i'd have to say 'no, but i wish it was'. I got a tiny stool to print out great from a website. it was the first thing printed. It;s the only thing i've gotten to come out that was semi-decent. Tried the fast, medium and best quality but issues everywhere.

[insta]

There may be some fundamental misunderstandings about the technology, as well as a few miscalibrated settings at play here. Nothing I'm saying after this is specific to the M2, but rather FDM-style printing (which is any printer you'll get for under $2000).

When choosing parts to print, especially without support material, you must pay special attention to the overhangs of the part. The plastic is coming out molten. Molten plastic sags, slumps, and is stretchy. Any individual thread of plastic must (with very few exceptions) have plastic underneath to hold it in place. Your heart shape failed because you have a very shallow curve upwards -- when the print head gets to the next layer, its putting plastic there, but there's no plastic underneath to hold it in place. If you didn't flip the raspberry Pi case lid upside down, it's going to fail in a heartbeat, as it's 99% overhang.

Also, I want pictures of your "burned" bed surface. Based on the sheer gloss of your posted parts, and the fact that Kapton can't "burn" at anything lower than the temperatures of an open flame, I'm guessing you're way too close to the bed -- and the "burning" is instead just mechanical damage from the nozzle ripping the tape up. If you haven't gone through the quick-start app to set the bed height, you aren't done, and I'm not surprised you're getting failures. A proper first-layer height is in the top 3 most important things that are mandatory to get correct for FDM printing to work without failure.

The included PLA with your printer should print at a nozzle temperature of 205C, and a bed temperature of 60C. You should be able to slide a piece of printer paper between the nozzle and the bed easily (both pushing and pulling) without it binding up.

[jtrue]

thank you for your time in the reply. I would love to be wrong here. Here's the flow so far.

I went thru the bed heightening procedure and it all made sense to me. The sample sheet of paper provided yielded a just noticeable sign of resistance after adjusting the height from each corner. After this came the part where you need to compensate for the lowest corner (which i did have one lower). Another round of sheet adjustment and then came the allen wrench screw height adjustment. I went through this process also but must admit the first time i wasn't as picky about the allen wrench part as the screws were so tight i was afraid i might break something. The second time i adjusted though i didn't get shy and the plat was leveled. Before leveling i had one print come off mid-make but no other slippages. After the second adjustment the burners took out the yellow film on top of the plate (this is what i described as "burning" sorry about being vague there.

I have built my CNC router from the inventables kit and it involved a lot of work. I want to say this in hopes you will see im not quick to give up or be shy with new tech. Also, this 3d printer was so much easier and the parts are so much better than my CNC.

I am really wishing i was just getting some results to put me back in the fan column. Also, now that the yellow film is torn i don't know what to do. I've found some youtube videos that explain tape is used on non-heated beds, the 3d printer came with a roll of tape but i have a heated bed and this film? Not sure what it does. It told me in the directions not to remove it. Maybe i've missed a manual somewhere? Im not going to use it until i can find what the tape is all about and how i get some new yellow film for the heat plate.

I've tried both PLA and ABS. I know different filaments get different heat settings.

I've attach the image of the "burned" part of the heat plate. Better word is "melted". I would be most open to anyone educating me about my results or how i can better understand this technology or use it more effectively. Right now, I'm not sure if buyers can expect to hit print and rely on an object to come out barring the occasional "paper jam" that consumer products will have.

[Jules]

Have you read through the Beginner's Guide here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3542

If not, I recommend that you read it before giving up on 3D printing. There is a learning curve associated with all of these machines, not because of the machines, but because you need to learn the properties of the plastics that you are printing. Without understanding what you are doing, you'll never be able to get the results you want.

I would suggest:
1. Read the Beginner's Guide.
2. Print designs created by other people who understand how to design for a 3D printer, before you try to print your own.
3. As you get more comfortable and understand the forces at work, then start designing your own files. (Issues like overhangs and wall thickness play a big part of designing for 3D. It might not be something you ever gave any thought to before.)

[insta]

thank you for your time in the reply. I would love to be wrong here. Here's the flow so far.

I went thru the bed heightening procedure and it all made sense to me. The sample sheet of paper provided yielded a just noticeable sign of resistance after adjusting the height from each corner. After this came the part where you need to compensate for the lowest corner (which i did have one lower). Another round of sheet adjustment and then came the allen wrench screw height adjustment. I went through this process also but must admit the first time i wasn't as picky about the allen wrench part as the screws were so tight i was afraid i might break something. The second time i adjusted though i didn't get shy and the plat was leveled. Before leveling i had one print come off mid-make but no other slippages. After the second adjustment the burners took out the yellow film on top of the plate (this is what i described as "burning" sorry about being vague there.

I have built my CNC router from the inventables kit and it involved a lot of work. I want to say this in hopes you will see im not quick to give up or be shy with new tech. Also, this 3d printer was so much easier and the parts are so much better than my CNC.

I am really wishing i was just getting some results to put me back in the fan column. Also, now that the yellow film is torn i don't know what to do. I've found some youtube videos that explain tape is used on non-heated beds, the 3d printer came with a roll of tape but i have a heated bed and this film? Not sure what it does. It told me in the directions not to remove it. Maybe i've missed a manual somewhere? Im not going to use it until i can find what the tape is all about and how i get some new yellow film for the heat plate.

I've tried both PLA and ABS. I know different filaments get different heat settings.

I've attach the image of the "burned" part of the heat plate. Better word is "melted". I would be most open to anyone educating me about my results or how i can better understand this technology or use it more effectively. Right now, I'm not sure if buyers can expect to hit print and rely on an object to come out barring the occasional "paper jam" that consumer products will have.

IMG_7358.JPG

That's definitely too close to the bed, and you cut & tore the tape with the print head. Remove the glass bed, peel the rest of the tape off, wash the bed very, very well with hot water and dish soap (and a scrubbie), until it's the cleanest thing in your household, then clean it further. Dry it front and back with paper towels. Tolerate NO specks, adhesive, or dirt -- use a razor blade if you must.

Place the clean bed back on your printer (don't clip it in), heat it to 50C, REMOVE IT FROM THE PRINTER, then set it down on a raised surface (I use the railing on my deck, or spanning a small trashcan), and soak the bejesus out of it with Aquanet "Extreme Hold" hairspray. It comes in a white & purple can at the dollar store. You want the hot bed to evaporate the hairspray quickly, and you do NOT want hairspray near your printer.

Once the bed is soaked and steaming, carefully place it back into the printer so the heated plate can drive the rest of the hairspray off. Once it's dry, swivel-clip it back in, start a print, and force the Z knob counterclockwise a few clunks, right before the extrusion starts. This will drop the print bed farther from the nozzle and prevent dragging. Get down at eye level with the printer, and clunk the knob back and forth until the height of the thread is about equal to its width -- this is a wholy unscientific method of getting prints running, but it will narrow down the machine working or not.

Use your PLA at 205/60C, and print something simple like my NEMA17-608ZZ adapter: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:21499

Post pictures.

[dramsey]

I share your frustration, as I went through somewhat similar problems. It was several months before I really had a handle on the M2, its capabilities, and how to tweak the various settings to achieve good results.

As insta notes, there are severe limitations on the physical objects you can create by "drawing" with near-molten plastic. Overhangs, except for ones so slight that the extruded plastic can partially rest on the previous layer, are out. There are many possible solutions:

-- Change the orientation of the part to eliminate overhangs. For example, if you're printing a large letter "T", print it laying flat on the bed rather than standing vertically.
-- Use supports (you indicated that you've tried this. One nice thing about Simplify3D is that you can edit the supports the program provides. Often you don't need as many.)
-- Break the model into pieces that can be printed individually.

You have the new M2 with the four-screw bed leveling mechanism, which is SO MUCH BETTER than the old three-screw system. I think that some of your problems still stem from improper bed-nozzle height. Just a few hundredths of a millimeter can mean the difference between a perfect print and a pile of thin plastic spaghetti. The thing you need to do is to verify this before you print real stuff, and the way you do this is to print a calibration part. There are variations, but a common way to do this is to print a "calibration square", a thin-walled square that's 20mm on a side and should be exactly 2mm tall.

(Do you have some digital calipers than can measure to the 1/100th of a mm? If not, buy some. They're cheap.)

I've attached a model for the calibration square. Print this model at the settings you have now, then measure the height of the walls. Ideally they'll be 2mm. If they're not, you make the final adjustments not by tweaking hardware, but by setting an offset in Simplify3D. For example, if your walls are 2.08 mm high, you set a Z-axis offset of -0.08mm in the "Global G-Code Offsets" section of the process settings in Simplify3D. (These settings are distinct for every "profile" and you can see them in the "G Code" tab when you edit the profile.)

In the same fashion, if the wall height is 1.95mm, you'd set an offset of 0.05mm.

Print again and if you're within, say, 0.02mm, you're good to go.

As an aside, I hate the way so many companies selling 3D printers push the idea that they're "set and walk away" items that reliably produce perfect output with minimal user interaction. We're not there yet, at least not in the sub-$5K category. Look at it this way: if someone gave you a CNC milling machine, would you expect to crank out a new piston for your classic motorcycle the first day, or would you expect to put in some quality time learning about metallurgy, machining techniques, and producing practice parts? It's like that, except not quite as messy, with 3D printing.

[zemlin]

Give it a little time.
There's some learning for sure, and FDM printing is not a plug-n-play process. I was able to get useable prints more or less right off, but after several months of careful study i get output from this machine that is better than any comparably priced machine I've seen, and as good as some far more expensive printers.

The user community here is outstanding, and will help you get it all ironed out.

[willnewton]

jtrue, one look at your photos and it is not hard to tell that the problem is probably not the machine, but an inexperienced operator.

3dprinters have limitations and parameters that must be adhered to. It ain't no plug and play laser printer. Would you also bash your Xcarve because you can't chuck a 2-inch milling cutter in it and machine a working helicopter in five minutes? Of course not!

Be patient, accept the fact that you have no idea what you are doing, and that the machine has a great reputation as a fantastic 3d printer and you might need more training.

What software are you using? I suspect you will need to do some software tweaking as well, perhaps more so than blaming things on hardware issues.

It's great that your bed is level, but you need that first layer to go down properly, as it sets the stage for the rest of the print. I prefer blue painter's tape vs. hairspray or Kapton (the yellow stuff you are dragging your nozzle through) as it is cheap and disposable and fast. The difference between a good first layer and a bad first layer is VERY small (.10 mm or less). Master the first layer by printing very boring squares and cubes. You can venture into overhangs later.

This picture is going to show you what to look for. Too bad it does not have the "So low you rip up the substrate" pictured, but you'll get the idea.

[grahamsholt]

jtrue,

The M2 isn't my first printer, but my first one involved a pretty big learning curve and it took me a while to get the hang of things.

In addition to the advice given so far, I would suggest using one of print files included with the SD card from MakerGear. These have already been sliced, so you can eliminate the slicing aspect as a variable in your troubleshooting. You wouldn't have to print the entire object, but getting the first 10-20 layers down will tell you a lot.

After that, the calibration cube is a great place to develop your software settings.

It can be done and the M2 is a lot better than what's out there in the price range (believe it or not).

If you haven't reached out to MakerGear Support, I would encourage you to do that as they are extremely helpful and are just plain good people that want us all to succeed in our 3D printing ad(ventures).

It is true that 3D printers are not at the 'set it and forget it' stage, but they are just right for the casual to dedicated maker. There are a lot of resources out there, but I like the 3D Print Quality Trouble Shooting Guide from Simplify 3D https://www.simplify3d.com/support/prin ... eshooting/ regardless of the software you are using.

Take care,
Graham

[theboz1419]

I will throw my .02cents

I was new to 3d printing last July. I never even seen one in action up close, but my side business, I have had to deal with 3d printed cases that I use to make BBQ controllers for people and that's why I wanted a 3d printer, so that I could build cases and other needed parts myself, and make them better.

I took over a year, to figure out that the makergear was the only printer I was willing to get. No other printer cna match the customer support, the quality of prints that makergear has been known to have.


Well, my first weekend was not easy and my printer would not even print a test sample from the sd card. I couldn't get it to run more then 5 minutes without the filament breaking(makergear's awesome customer service sent me 2 free rolls of pla), luckily air had bought some cheap PLA at fry's and I tried again to lprint a case for my rpi.

1st attempt- nozzle to low, no material extruding.
2ND attempt-nozzle to high, material not sticking.
And so on.......I tried everything, I was able to get it to stick and then it would warp, I then used a raft and could not get the raft off the case. I ripped my kapton layer the first day.

I did the bed height process numerous times and nothing seemed to work. But, then I realized I was not finishing the bed height procedure, I kept for getting the last step when it again ask you to reset you bed height in the middle and then save the results. I never adjusted the z height and saved it to the M2.

After, I did this and made sure my bed waso perfectly level. I did alot of stop and go testing, I would read up on troubleshooting 3d printing guides and adjust my bed to get better results. I found out my bed leveling was not great by doing it by eye, but it's much easier seeing the results and making minor adjustments, I can print ok, not good as there was one more thing that am still working to know better and thats the ratio. I settled on about .90 it can vary, depending on the roll of material.

Now, I'm printing ABS after building a plexiglass case, and I just love the results I'm getting with ABS.

I probably left out alot that I had to go through to get good results, but learning from mistakes and knowing what you are looking at when a print fails, and how to correct it, will help you very much.


Sorry for the rambling, I'm writing this from my phone with my baby in my arms whom has the stomach flu and whom gave it to me also.